The Fundamental Problem

A battle is being waged for the minds of Americans. The battle is between religious fundamentalism and reason. The fate of the United States is not the only concern at stake, the future of the world is being decided.

There are two types of Christianity…(actually there are hundreds of differing cults)  fundamentalists, adhering to a literal meaning of the bible, and the other group going with interpretations, not believing in literal derivations, but instead relying on metaphorical, non-literal meanings.

Of most concern are the fundamentalists. The greatest problem being with those who, even in the face of overwhelming factual evidence to the contrary continue to believe the information in a 2000 plus year old book in preference to science and reason. I am particularly singling out those who :

1. Believe that the Earth is 6000 to 10000 years old. (And that therefore, dinosaurs and people walked side by side)

2. Believe that anyone can spend several days inside a fish and then come out alive.

3. Believe that anyone can feed a crowd on a couple of fish.

4. Believe that anyone can walk on water that is not frozen.

5. Believe anyone can be killed and then come back to life 3 days later.

6. Believe in total Biblical inerrancy. (Despite the numerous errors and contradictions)

7. Believe that Jesus was God become man.

8. Believe that a virgin can give birth. (Unless you are a lizard of some type.)

Of least danger are those who merely hold to many of the teachings that are attributed to Jesus, and consider him a prophet. In between these and the fundamentalists are varying degrees of belief. Some a danger some not so very much. Any system which can cause someone to believe in the unbelievable, without evidence, without proof,  is capable of manipulating that someone to undertake the unspeakable.

Fundamentalists revel in their ignorance. Of course, they don’t consider believing something totally on faith without evidence as ignorance. Ignorance, meaning without knowledge, whether willfully or innocently thus, rather than stupidity as some seem to think. These people carry this ignorance around, flaunt it, as if it were a holy virtue to believe without knowledge. This is understandable, as truth, knowledge, facts, and evidence, are anathema to fundamentalism. You surely wouldn’t want to be little Timmy and be found with a book on evolution, in a fundamentalist family. It would be like being found with a pornography magazine in a normal family.

As in all learning, the earlier you learn, the more you retain, as well as the more stock you place in what you learn. Children are like vacuum cleaners where knowledge is concerned. Due to evolutionary pressures they are very trusting of authority, parents. Fundamentalists, and other religionists know this, and are eager, almost desperate, to indoctrinate their children before such time as the children might acquire the ability to determine the validity of said doctrine.

This is exactly why I, and many others, oppose the early indoctrination of children by religion. Children should not be exposed to religious doctrine until such time as they have the wherewithal to make an educated decision whether to believe it. This is why the public schools need to remain secular, rather than sectarian. This is why so many people of faith are so determined to return prayer and Bible study to schools, so as to reinforce faith.

This is why it is paramount that the Separation of Church and State remain absolute.

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14 Responses to The Fundamental Problem

  1. Hi Mr/Ms (I couldn’t tell by your post) Freethinker,

    In response to your statements, “Any system which can cause someone to believe in the unbelievable, without evidence, without proof, is capable of manipulating that someone to undertake the unspeakable…Fundamentalists revel in their ignorance. Of course, they don’t consider believing something totally on faith without evidence as ignorance. Ignorance, meaning without knowledge, whether willfully or innocently thus, rather than stupidity as some seem to think. These people carry this ignorance around, flaunt it, as if it were a holy virtue to believe without knowledge. This is understandable, as truth, knowledge, facts, and evidence, are anathema to fundamentalism” I would like to ask you a few questions that really sum up one thought wholly.

    Where is your PROOF for evolution and where is your EVIDENCE for every living thing that we see today coming from one mighty-morphin immortal microscopic organism? Unless you believe in spotaneous generation…which in that case I’d like to see you PROVE that one with a science experiment even better. When is the last time that you (or anyone else) WITNESSED a reptile turning into a bird or a greenbean sprouting off watermelon seeds? Where is the EVIDENCE for these things in the atheistic/evolutionist coveted fossil record? After all, if it were there it would be “written in stone right? I’m only asking because your post is all about the EVIDENCE and PROOF and how “stupid” a person is for believing in things written in the BIble that they have not witnessed right?

    Sounds to me like you revel in placing your science book (the parts about evolution and other unproven theories) up on a very, very high pedestal by taking its word for something that you have never SEEN, OBSERVED or PROVED (nor has anyone else); but we wouldn’t want facts to interfere with any fundamentalist junk science doctrines now would we? When it comes to evolution you are relying on the same thing that you criticize so many others for – your faith, only have a lot more at stake in your faith my friend!

    If you would like to reply to anything please reply to my second paragraph. That’s the part that no other “science believing” evolutionist/atheist has really ever cared to answer before in my conversations with them on wordpress.

    Take care.

  2. drenn1077 says:

      Where is your PROOF for evolution and where is your EVIDENCE for every living thing that we see today coming from one mighty-morphin immortal microscopic organism? Unless you believe in spotaneous generation…which in that case I’d like to see you PROVE that one with a science experiment even better. When is the last time that you (or anyone else) WITNESSED a reptile turning into a bird or a greenbean sprouting off watermelon seeds? Where is the EVIDENCE for these things in the atheistic/evolutionist coveted fossil record? After all, if it were there it would be “written in stone right? I’m only asking because your post is all about the EVIDENCE and PROOF and how “stupid” a person is for believing in things written in the BIble that they have not witnessed right? “

    Why does it matter? From the tone of your letter I am convinced all the evidence in the world would not sway you. The fossil evidence is clear, and very convincing to those who care to investigate them. Even if it there were no fossils the genetic evidence alone is sufficient to prove relationships between all living things and therefore evolution as well.
    Where did it begin? How did it begin? Were you there? Did you see it happen? I doubt it. You just took the word of a 2000 year old tome on how it began, as well as the assurances that everything in it were true because your parents and/or pastor told you so.
    Science is advancing daily, however, presently it is thought that all matter was in a very small spot, perhaps the size of the Earth or smaller, and it exploded outward. As it cooled, planets, stars, and moons formed out of the matter. Once a few stars went nova, allowing heavier elements to form. As the Earth cooled, amino acids, forming from mixing elements, led to RNA, DNA, then to the first living cell. From this point, and not until, evolution begins.
    The information is freely available on numerous sites on the internet. You’ll have no problem finding a zillion sites to satisfy your curiosity.
    Science must either be accepted or rejected, there is no faith involved. Science can change when new information arises. Religion cannot. Science can be tested, religion cannot. Science deals in facts.
    As far as a reptile becoming a bird? No one said it did. There have been many fossils found which relate how one type of animal evolved over time into another. Small differences exist in every individual. Some of these differences enhance, others detract from that individuals ability to adapt to changes in the environment. Those individuals of a species that have those variations that allow them to survive will continue on to pass their genes to the next generation. Small changes in DNA replication, errors, mutations, etc. can either be beneficial or detrimental to a species survival.
    In any case such small changes over millions of years can amount to total big changes at the end of that time. A bird can be the ancestor to some reptilian species from many millions of years prior to it’s existence.
    Millions, equal to a thousand thousands, then numerous millions of years, is more than sufficient time to change in very big ways.
    What about the many millions of extinct species? Why do they die out? Were they not made perfect for this world?

  3. Eugene Adkins says:

    Now wait my friend, you’re doing exactly what all the other atheistic/evolutionist procalimers do – you repsond without providing the PROOF that you “revel” in. I’m not going to change the conversation. My stance is faith (as you made mention of in your original post) so I didn’t have to be present for my beliefs and I can give scripture as to why I believe what I believe, but your stance according to your own words is observable, provable, evidence so don’t change the conversation to whether or not “you will or will not convince me by the tone of my letter.” I want to finish the idea you started with your tone in your letter and that’s that all of your atheistic/evolutionist beliefs are provable with facts and that all literal Bible believers are foolish for taking things by faith. But where is your evidence my friend?

    “Science is advancing daily, however, presently it is thought that all matter was in a very small spot, perhaps the size of the Earth or smaller, and it exploded outward.”

    Don’t tell me what your science book has thought (even then you can’t say “science proves” can you?) about the origin of matter, because you weren’t there and because you won’t take what “my book says” without evidence, so why should I do the same with your book? Tell/show me what science proves about the origin of life. Matter and life are not the same things. Do you actually believe in an immortal microscopic organism! My friend the burden of proof is on you and your claim that species can change into other species. Where is your PROOF? Where are the visible fossils?

    I see where your faith is, but I don’t see where your scientific proof is. True science reveals order and order reveals a Builder (Hebrews 3:4). Order does not come from chaos. You don’t build a house by sticking dynamite in a tree. Please stick to your original post and give me the proof of evolution lest you seem like an “ignorant fundamentalist.” Don’t give me your faith fundamentalist scientist – give me your PROOF.

    Hey, it’s your words, but I believe you were thinking of the wrong fundamentalists when you wrote them because so far you have provided no evidence on the same scale that you require for Bible believers and God – “Fundamentalists revel in their ignorance. Of course, they don’t consider believing something totally on faith without evidence as ignorance. Ignorance, meaning without knowledge, whether willfully or innocently thus, rather than stupidity as some seem to think. These people carry this ignorance around, flaunt it, as if it were a holy virtue to believe without knowledge. This is understandable, as truth, knowledge, facts, and evidence, are anathema to fundamentalism.”

    Let’s stick with your points about me not being intelligent because you have all the PROOF. Here’s another chance for you to share it; unless you just want to admit right now that you believe what you believe by faith.

    Take care Drenn.

  4. drenn1077 says:

    “I see where your faith is, but I don’t see where your scientific proof is. True science reveals order and order reveals a Builder (Hebrews 3:4). Order does not come from chaos.”
    Faith is easy, science is hard. That is the reason the faithful desire to remain ignorant. Ignorant does not mean stupid, as much as you would like it to. What you are saying in essence is unless you did all the research yourself, everything you accept by way of others is faith.
    You have the easy job, to sit back and accept everything on faith.
    This is another trick of the faithful. Charging that all information is accepted on faith, even though that is not the case. Reason and logic are used in the examination of information. Tests, done by others and additional duplicate tests done by even others are then cataloged for review, are then used to ascertain what is true, and what is not true. Theories are put forth, examined for their soundness, then either accepted, or rejected on the basis of reason and logic.
    Order results from Chaos in an open system where energy is supplied. In our case, our energy is supplied by the sun.
    By the way, the only proof I require from fundamentalists is the same I require from any Christian… prove your God exists. That’s all, just that one thing, nothing more. Prove that Jesus walked the Earth, is God, died, and was resurrected. Simple enough. And … one last time… you are equating intelligence level, stupidity, with ignorance. Ignorance means in this case a lack of knowledge about science, willfully or innocently, is of no concern.
    -haveaniceday Eugene.

  5. Eugene Adkins says:

    What does any of that prove? That educated people have faith in something that they claim they can prove but have never proven? Educated people have never been wrong have they? Where you there 2 billion years ago? I didn’t think so. If the “missing link” that your chain needs were ever found it would be up on the news everyday. Your weak-link is the “missing link” that will never be found. I think what you’re missing about RNA/DNA when it comes to people and the rest of life on earth is that Bible teaches our bodies (our RNA/DNA) come from the same carbon based source as the rest of the life on earth – the dirt!

    But speaking of missing links and sense you believe in the evolution of species as the source of all variences…do you, like other atheistic/evolutionists, believe in a superior race of people? Are some races less valuable than others? I mean evolution is at work right? I’m just following the logic of your beliefs. Would you care answer that?

    Looks like all you care to talk about is how silly other people are for believing in a book that “can’t be proved” when the proof police can’t even provide the badge that they speak of in their own “law book” of junk science.

  6. Eugene Adkins says:

    And you still have answered your own “fundamental problem” of how you get life from non-life! It doesn’t sound like you’re holding to the known physical scientific fact that life can only come from life. Where did life come from? Where is your faith…I mean your proof?

  7. drenn1077 says:

    All of it proves exactly everything I have said. You’re just being arrogant. You know I’m right, but you cannot bring yourself to admit it.
    We have a very good lineup of fossils of ancestors of humans. Has every single possible gap been filled? No. How many would it take for you? Every time one is added, you know, you would simply say, hey, there’s two more gaps.

    Dirt may have carbon in it, but it is not carbon in and of itself. Carbon, like all elements heavier than hydrogen and helium, was formed within a star which went Nova.

    Is there a superior race of people? Well, Christians certainly think so, the people they think are superior are the chosen people, do you know who the chosen people of God are? (Hint: Holocaust, 1948, middle east) There always have been people who thought them superior to all others. Science has proven instead that everyone on Earth, Black, white, yellow, it doesn’t matter, are nearly identical. The only differences being a little bit of cosmetics, like color, facial structure, etc. I think everyone is capable of great thought, great deeds, and good morality.

  8. drenn1077 says:

    Life from non-life. Your non-acceptance of science is a dreadful handicap, for you, and for me. Life came from mineral accumulations. It has been proven that mixtures of inorganic substances can produce amino acids. The experiment used water, methane, hydrogen, and ammonia. Activated monomers within this soup of amino acids led to the formation of self-replicating RNA, then DNA, The first cell, to complex life. It is everywhere on the internet. There are many questions still awaiting an answer. Information now thought acceptable, may be disproven tomorrow. Why must God be inserted into the works when God is not needed? If God existed then it would be impossible for him to hide. Show me God. If mankind needs a creator, if everything must have cause and effect….

    Who made your God?

  9. Listen to what you’re saying. You admit there are many “links” that are missing but yet you say your belief is based on fact (which cannot be shown) instead of faith. When you have missing links you know what you have to have to jump over them don’t you? Faith!

    You’re missing the clear point about the dirt reference. Physically speaking people are made up of the same substance that the rest of creation on earth is made of so having DNA in common with other things in no way harms a belief in a Creator nor does it contradict the scriptures. It actually compliments them.

    And please let me fill you in on something, you’re not talking to someone who ignores the purpose of the NT when it comes to God’s “special people” and the Jews. The Jewish people were God’s vessell through which He would bring Jesus into the world. If one desires to be apart of God’s people today they MUST do so through Jesus. Here’s some scriptures if you would like to learn the truth about the subject (Galatians 3,4 & 1 Peter 2:1-12; John 14:6). And by the way, before science ever dreamed of declaring men to be equal on the inside the Bible already proclaimed it very plainly and still does so (Acts 17:16-34).

    Back to the original subject and your “fundamental problem.” You say I wasn’t at the tomb 2,000 years ago so how can I know. I say you weren’t at the “big bang” 2, 3, 4 or however many billion years ago it was so how can you know? You say I want proof or won’t believe in your God. I say I want proof or there’s no reason in calling something a scientific fact (it amazes how science can have liberties with the word fact) such as evolution. You see, for every major argument you throw at me about the silliness of having faith you adhere to the very same principle…only like I said before, you have much more at stake in your faith.

    The Bible does not contradict itself, and unlike science books it does not have to change or update itself and between the OT and the NT there is a fully revealed will of God that revolves around the person of Jesus, the existence of life, the problem of sin and the possibility of salvation. You have a Creator who loves you Drenn and He has chosen to reveal the existence of Himself through the observable facts of real science and His will for our lives through His written word. If you would like to read more indepth scientific articles that reveal the existence of a desiger please visit http://apologeticspress.org They have addressed all the arguments you have presented with clear scientific answers and logic.

    Take care Drenn. I will leave the conversation where it now stands.

  10. drenn1077 says:

    I do not have a belief. I accept the findings of science. Faith is not required. When you have questions there is no need to fabricate answers. Determined, resolute, you march on in a search for knowledge. The fossil evidence is overwhelming. There have been so many linkages made, enough to see the pattern. Just because the work is difficult, time-consuming, is no reason to throw up one’s hands, give up, and give credit to an invention of human imagination, God.

    DNA evidence overwhelmingly links every living thing. Genetic evidence clinches how close we are to our closest relative the Chimpanzee. In addition to this, it depicts a host of genetic material, inert now, but evidence that evolution has taken place. Many of our human features, including the eye, laryngeal artery, and others show flaws, flaws that are a product of evolution. Flaws that would not have been there if we had been created, flaws that only would be the result of evolution building on previous structures, rather than starting from scratch.

    The reference that you speak of is vague, as is all scripture, easily twisted to mean anything including what was meant by it when it was written, that man proceeded from Adam.

    All I see is someone who has made his mind up in advance that he will have none of man’s science. Your fantasy may have progressed to the point of no return. You have failed to invalidate a single thing in my blog, yet, being smug, you think you have. I expect nothing less from someone in your condition.

    Biblical contradictions abound, and can be found on the new anathema to religion, the internet. The Bible cannot change, cannot correct it’s many errors, as it is as it proclaims unchangeable. And yet, to accommodate the ever increasing knowledge of science, many of the literal interpretations of the Bible are being abandoned as metaphors.

    There is no sin, for there is no god, Eugene. Therefore no need for salvation. Christians do so hate themselves, and humans in general. They want this life to be over so they can enter their fictional utopia. No wonder such belief is so dangerous.
    Once more, I will state the truth, Science is anathema to religion and blind belief. If you ever rise above your current condition, examine your own “science” and you will find it isn’t science at all, but instead, pseudoscience.

    As usual, the religious, when facing truth, take a hike.

  11. Pingback: Attacks on a Woman’s Right to Choose, Unlawful Detention, Religion and Reason……….. « Just The Messenger

  12. Charles says:

    You’re both pretentious dingbats who should have your own marrow sacrificed to the alter of hot ashes. [1] I seem to understand that ifn’t a 100 percent of what is perceived is not actualized, then it’s no good and we should throw it away and blah blah blah.

    This dichotomy between science and religion, drenneth, is ludicrous. Two abstract concepts and the one seems to propagate a mass of consumerism, environmental destruction, faith in breathing once and twice (but not again), efficiency, clockwork mentality — which is not to say industry/science hasn’t given us anything. That would be highly ignorant; the benefits abound.

    As for the fictional utopia, you might also want to aim that at Owen and the Marxists — surely that was a fucking dream gone to hell.

    “I got facts on my side.” Big whoop. That’s irrelevant on a personal level.
    What about a social level? Because after all, you’re preaching to every corner of sentience, and claiming dibs on rationality. You can’t even figure any ground for knowledge for anything at all. It’s a bunch of recurrent crap that regenerates a kind of superiority. The pluralist elements of your thinking are probably just thrown in as some kind of Husserlian Lebenswelt.

    Maybe I should compare “Take care drenn” with “take a hike.” What a bunch of slobber, to be colloquial and non-partial.

    And whither the prejudice with metaphors? You’re physical utopia is putrid sauce. What about this bitch called entropy, or the comets?

    You might as well say the stars are a human invention because we perceive them. It’s just chicken-and-egg bullshit. Quit perpetuating these frozen myths about factual assertions — they’ve no place in a desirable society.

  13. drenn1077 says:

    I see only angry blathering in your comment. Evolution is totally falsifiable, yet you make no attempt to falsify, test the theory. Evolution has never been refuted. You could have said “I don’t agree”, instead of revealing just how much you do not know.

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